Liav said:I don't really agree at all. All this does is encourage poopsocking which breeds some of the most toxic behavior I've ever seen in an MMORPG. Just look at P99.
I agree and it sucks. But I feel if the zones are open zones then putting people on lockoiut timers for open zones is a bad idea. To me its just about the same as an instance.
Kalgore said:Liav said:I don't really agree at all. All this does is encourage poopsocking which breeds some of the most toxic behavior I've ever seen in an MMORPG. Just look at P99.
I agree and it sucks. But I feel if the zones are open zones then putting people on lockoiut timers for open zones is a bad idea. To me its just about the same as an instance.
I agree with both of you, which is why I would like a mix of the two. A raid instance (Like APW, PoTime, Tacvi etc) and open world bosses without lockouts like Ele planes in EQ, Dresula, Jug etc in VG. This way those that like to poopsock and gloat about how they are the only guild to kill said boss can, and the rest of the server population that want to raid on a set schedule can. Infact VG didn't even have true instancing, just semi instancing and it worked great IMO.
Amsai said: Id restate that last statement as: If your raid group cant beat the mob then you dont deserve the loot. To say you dont deserve the loot if you cant gather the amount of people is a bit obnoxious. Its all random chance and other vague things. Its not a hard set of numbers that can be measured like skill. So while I do think competition is needed. To allow it to the point that 1 super guild can lock everyone else out 95% of the time is not ok and should be dealt with. I wouldnt think this way on a PvP server because then skill can be dropped in with the ability to kill those in your way. But in PvE its not healthy. Given enough time and effort anyone that tries should get a oppertunity. Notice I say oppertunity. Its still up to a guild to have the skill to beat a raid and they still have to fight the RNG.
I disagree most raiding isnt random chances its hours spent learning a MOB finding timers and then having your raid force be able to joust, or Deaggro or handle adds etc etc etc. Like it or not a lot of players can't handle doing things and cordnating with 23 other people.
Liav said:The primary complaint people have about instancing is how it splinters the game world and makes it seem more unpopulated than it actually is. Having lockouts on raid bosses doesn't allow for that.
Vanguard handled this just fine.
My #1 issue is that it devalues content, and speficically, loot. Fighting down to the bottom of lower guk and breaking the frenzied ghoul camp and owning it means something when you're the only group doing it. Instancing floods the economy with loot, and, imo, horribly devalues encounters. You are no longer the only one doing something on your server at a given time. That sucks.
Kalgore said:Liav said:The primary complaint people have about instancing is how it splinters the game world and makes it seem more unpopulated than it actually is. Having lockouts on raid bosses doesn't allow for that.
Vanguard handled this just fine.
What did Vanguard do??
Overland raid mobs turn a ghosted out whitish/greyish color when you're locked out, and they can't be interacted with in any way.
While there was some trolling that went on with the competitive guilds, that's pretty trivial to deal with as long as VR takes an active stance in punishing the players who attempt to do shitty things like lag out zones and such.
Amsai said: Thats not what I mean. I mean some people are lucky enough to be able to be charismatic or whatever enough to even get a very large guild. Others are lucky enough to have people on all the time or with very flexible schedules. This is what I mean. Not how quickly you can gather people. That I will agree is a skill of quickly getting out orders and the ability of those players to react fast and efficiently. But if even having the numbers available at that time is the issue. Of course this depends on how big or small or flexable raid size is. I really wouldnt have too much sympathy for a guild that couldnt get say 18 people or less on line and in gear. But could understand if said group couldnt get 60 people onlin and in gear. So at some point there needs to be a balance of community skills vs community luck. But yea if there are 5 guilds all camping a raid with 20 guys each. Then its first come first serve. Of course the other reason is I want to be careful that **** doesnt always break down into zergfest with a giant guild that totally bypasses the challenge in the name of immersion or community. There is always such a thing as too much of a good thing.
Gotca. I understand that point of it. I dont know its going to be interesting. The main reason I liked instances for most raids is raid trash and working your way to the end you might have to spend 2 hours clearing lesser names and trash to get to the boss. Raid mobs in contested have always been pretty much a massive 4x mob in the middle of lvl 10 mobs. which means you have just that one mob. Hence why earlier I was saying it would be good to see good loot drop from instances but the best loot drops from open world mobs as a balance
Liav said:Kalgore said:Liav said:The primary complaint people have about instancing is how it splinters the game world and makes it seem more unpopulated than it actually is. Having lockouts on raid bosses doesn't allow for that.
Vanguard handled this just fine.
What did Vanguard do??
Overland raid mobs turn a ghosted out whitish/greyish color when you're locked out, and they can't be interacted with in any way.
While there was some trolling that went on with the competitive guilds, that's pretty trivial to deal with as long as VR takes an active stance in punishing the players who attempt to do shitty things like lag out zones and such.
So what was the lockout timer and the respawn timer on some of these mobs. Did they onyl do it for raid mobs or named group mobs as well??
Kalgore said:Liav said:Kalgore said:Liav said:The primary complaint people have about instancing is how it splinters the game world and makes it seem more unpopulated than it actually is. Having lockouts on raid bosses doesn't allow for that.
Vanguard handled this just fine.
What did Vanguard do??
Overland raid mobs turn a ghosted out whitish/greyish color when you're locked out, and they can't be interacted with in any way.
While there was some trolling that went on with the competitive guilds, that's pretty trivial to deal with as long as VR takes an active stance in punishing the players who attempt to do shitty things like lag out zones and such.
So what was the lockout timer and the respawn timer on some of these mobs. Did they onyl do it for raid mobs or named group mobs as well??
It seems well premature to implement something like this from launch. It's only an issue on very mature servers.
Kalgore said:So what was the lockout timer and the respawn timer on some of these mobs. Did they onyl do it for raid mobs or named group mobs as well??
Just raids. I can't remember the times tbh. It was all over the place.
The lockouts were generally longer than the encounter respawn, however, so multiple guilds had a shot at doing the content. There were times when two guild's lockouts were up and they had to compete, but it was mostly easily resolved. IF you engaged first and your guild managed to beat the encounter, too bad for the other guild. If you wiped, the other guild would pull.
Liav said:Kalgore said:So what was the lockout timer and the respawn timer on some of these mobs. Did they onyl do it for raid mobs or named group mobs as well??
Just raids. I can't remember the times tbh. It was all over the place.
The lockouts were generally longer than the encounter respawn, however, so multiple guilds had a shot at doing the content. There were times when two guild's lockouts were up and they had to compete, but it was mostly easily resolved. IF you engaged first and your guild managed to beat the encounter, too bad for the other guild. If you wiped, the other guild would pull.
Hmm sounds interesting. The one thing I would hate to see is something with like a 7 day lockout but a 1 day respawn allowing it to be farmed every day by a different guild. 2 maybe 3 times before guild A lockout timer is up would be nice
Kalgore said:Hmm sounds interesting. The one thing I would hate to see is something with like a 7 day lockout but a 1 day respawn allowing it to be farmed every day by a different guild. 2 maybe 3 times before guild A lockout timer is up would be nice
Yeah, I think the lockouts were in the 72-96 hours range and the respawns were in the 24-48 hour range.
I guess I just don't want to see variable respawn times because like I said, it encourages people to poopsock. I'd much rather be able to schedule my raids and at most we just end up having to skip a target because it's not up.
Liav said:Kalgore said:Hmm sounds interesting. The one thing I would hate to see is something with like a 7 day lockout but a 1 day respawn allowing it to be farmed every day by a different guild. 2 maybe 3 times before guild A lockout timer is up would be nice
Yeah, I think the lockouts were in the 72-96 hours range and the respawns were in the 24-48 hour range.
I guess I just don't want to see variable respawn times because like I said, it encourages people to poopsock. I'd much rather be able to schedule my raids and at most we just end up having to skip a target because it's not up.
The lockouts and respawn timers for the majority of VG end game raid content, including most overland mobs was 7 day lockout (one kill per week) and instant to 6 hour respawn depending on what mob, most respawned instantly and appeared as a blue translucent colour and you could not engage with them but for anyone not locked out, they would be red and aggro on sight.
This method worked well and encouraged raiding guilds to communicate raid schedules and kill times between each other so as to not bottleneck at certain mobs waiting for each other to take the mob down, most guilds in the same timezone would either raid the same mob on different days from each other or one at the start of the raid and the other guild would finish on that mob or something similar but it worked really well in my opinion, it stopped the farming of uber gear, slowed progression enough to allow guilds to concentrate on other aspects of the game and their members and removed a lot of the hostility and competition that set guilds against each other.
Kilsin said:The lockouts and respawn timers for the majority of VG end game raid content, including most overland mobs was 7 day lockout (one kill per week) and instant to 6 hour respawn depending on what mob, most respawned instantly and appeared as a blue translucent colour and you could not engage with them but for anyone not locked out, they would be red and aggro on sight.
This method worked well and encouraged raiding guilds to communicate raid schedules and kill times between each other so as to not bottleneck at certain mobs waiting for each other to take the mob down, most guilds in the same timezone would either raid the same mob on different days from each other or one at the start of the raid and the other guild would finish on that mob or something similar but it worked really well in my opinion, it stopped the farming of uber gear, slowed progression enough to allow guilds to concentrate on other aspects of the game and their members and removed a lot of the hostility and competition that set guilds against each other.
APW was a 12 or 18 hour spawn time was it not? I remember some wings would be down and we would have to look through instances to see what was up and pick an instance that had the wing we wanted to work on spawned. If more then one was spawned that we could do we would look for the one with the random boss and do that one. I seem to remember the random named was on a longer (or shorter) lockout then the rest and was offset by like 6 hours?
It was one of the most enjoyable raiding experiences I had in terms of knowing that we would have something up, but not always knowing what that something would be, during our raid times.
Dreconic said:Kilsin said:The lockouts and respawn timers for the majority of VG end game raid content, including most overland mobs was 7 day lockout (one kill per week) and instant to 6 hour respawn depending on what mob, most respawned instantly and appeared as a blue translucent colour and you could not engage with them but for anyone not locked out, they would be red and aggro on sight.
This method worked well and encouraged raiding guilds to communicate raid schedules and kill times between each other so as to not bottleneck at certain mobs waiting for each other to take the mob down, most guilds in the same timezone would either raid the same mob on different days from each other or one at the start of the raid and the other guild would finish on that mob or something similar but it worked really well in my opinion, it stopped the farming of uber gear, slowed progression enough to allow guilds to concentrate on other aspects of the game and their members and removed a lot of the hostility and competition that set guilds against each other.APW was a 12 or 18 hour spawn time was it not? I remember some wings would be down and we would have to look through instances to see what was up and pick an instance that had the wing we wanted to work on spawned. If more then one was spawned that we could do we would look for the one with the random boss and do that one. I seem to remember the random named was on a longer (or shorter) lockout then the rest and was offset by like 6 hours?
It was one of the most enjoyable raiding experiences I had in terms of knowing that we would have something up, but not always knowing what that something would be, during our raid times.
I wasn't including APW as it was a standalone level 50 dungeon that hadn't been considered "end game" for many years man, but yes, APW had it's own lockout timers on mobs that would make them disappear after killing them for a certain time, I forget what it was though :)
In relation to the "Shards" they were not instances in the true sense, they were just mirrored zones, which anyone could enter, it wasn't locked to any group, as you would remember, but speaking to the devs years ago was really informative how they explained the way the shards worked and how they were very different to instancing and also how each of the 6 shards for APW was it's own entire zone!
Pretty cool stuff, I thought :)
Kalgore said:So contested Raid mobs are no longer contested. Adding a lockout timer or a "debuff (exact same thing really) Or some other mechnic that makes it so when that mob spawns again it cant be attacked is pretty much the exact same thing as an instance does. Granted not every guild can kill the mob before Guild A lockout time expires. It still limits the encounters. That is taking a huge turn away from the old school style. In reality if it is a contested mob and it spawns once every 6 days nothing should stop one guild from killing it over and over and over. thats the hole point of it being contested and open world. Some people get loot and some people don't. If your raid force cant gather fast enough to steal it from another raid then you dont deserve the loot.
No, no and no. Why would you assume that? The whole point of my post was not to get rid of contested raid mobs. I never said that you can't do it, it is an added challange. If you want to keep killing the mob over and over again that's fine, but he is ready for you this time, your raid is going to be taking an extra 15% damage from him and it might not be worth the risk, 2 mistakes allowed just turned into one. Instead of just trolling over my post, how about you stop and think about how it might work, instead jumping to these conclusions of how they are the same when obviously they are not. A lock out eliminates the contest, a debuff doesn't have to.
And just to restate what I said before again so that more false assumptions are not made. I said he could cast a debuff for "all" dark magic attacks (that means not just his). So that means this could affect a persons solo or group play as well. That camp you were doing might not be all that great now and might (or might not) have you looking elsewhere for xp. This could open up camps for others by not forcing you, but encouraging you to move.
Liav said:The primary complaint people have about instancing is how it splinters the game world and makes it seem more unpopulated than it actually is. Having lockouts on raid bosses doesn't allow for that.
Vanguard handled this just fine.
Assuming that dungeon only exist for raids, and for guilds.
But doesn't work as a whole or for all. Much better solutions out there, than holding on to a cheap mechanic such as zone instancing, or lockout timer.
Hieromonk said:Assuming that dungeon only exist for raids, and for guilds.
But doesn't work as a whole or for all. Much better solutions out there, than holding on to a cheap mechanic such as zone instancing, or lockout timer.
I didn't say anything about dungeons. If you're going to refute my argument, offer a counter argument.
Kilsin said:I wasn't including APW as it was a standalone level 50 dungeon that hadn't been considered "end game" for many years man, but yes, APW had it's own lockout timers on mobs that would make them disappear after killing them for a certain time, I forget what it was though :)
In relation to the "Shards" they were not instances in the true sense, they were just mirrored zones, which anyone could enter, it wasn't locked to any group, as you would remember, but speaking to the devs years ago was really informative how they explained the way the shards worked and how they were very different to instancing and also how each of the 6 shards for APW was it's own entire zone!Pretty cool stuff, I thought :)
yes Shards, that is what I was thinking. Was not instances just mirror copy of each other (save for different spawns could be up...) worked out really good IMO.